Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Essex at Chelmsford
#81
Correct .... it has been coming.... even the hawks and the doves last season could see it. The train of failure was on the track... we knew it was coming... we even put our heads on the track and could hear it.... unfortunately that's where we left our head... and the train has arrived. Unfortunately things are a bit too cozy ... too "Warwickshire" with Giles, Troughton, Frost, Bell etc. etc. unable to take the rose coloured spectacles off and do some hard things that need doing.

I honestly don't know where we go from here.... division 2 is not a good place to be.

I don't know why, but Posts 74 and 80 made me smile .... Post 79 is probably a calm reflection on where we are.

The only way is up...... hopefully :-)
Reply
#82
(22-06-2017, 03:15 PM)Rayb Wrote: No one could convince me that there are not major problems with our cricket team that go far beyond the abilities of 11 individual players. To only blame the coaches is equally as bad as only blaming the players, collectively however it is a complete mess and as we employ coaches to apparently coach surely that is a starting point that is difficult to ignore. Can anyone point to a bowler that has improved in the last two or three years, certainly not one who plays regular first team cricket. Equally the same question has to be asked in the batting department which includes two of the most successful and talented English test players of recent times, how can that be? I can't think of first division county where that dismal claim to fame could be equalled and probably no second division one. Every county that I think of has individuals that show considerable signs of improvement, every county has improved by acquisition or by identifying players who might qualify to play for them for a season or two, maybe longer, but not us, quite simply not us. Firstly how about getting Jim to go back to doing what he was doing last season, whatever that was, and getting Ashley to be first team coach. Which is what I believed he was coming back to do rather than some elevated position that we didn't have previously, and he has never done before, secondly find a bowling coach who can improve bowlers and might even know one or two to draft in. Thirdly ask Jack Frost to go back to cutting the grass and get Jonathan to double up as batting coach until the end of the season. Lastly ask our captain if he really wants to be our captain or does he want to concentrate on getting his test place back, which one day will sink in with him and he will realise that it ain't gonna happen!

I agree to a certain extent but do bowlers improve beyond the age of 30, spinners do but seamers only go one way, particularly when they get injuries. why do you think Trott would do better as a batting coach than Tony Frost  and please don't belittle him by calling him Jack Frost.. He probably reads the forum. Jim Troughton captained the side to the title. Not saying the coaches aren't blameless but for me its down to poor recruitment and letting a side get old and doing nothing about it.

Reply
#83
(22-06-2017, 02:35 PM)Paul Wrote: I think its very unfair to lay the blame on Jim.  It rests with the players. Either they are past it or unmotivated and its very difficult for young players coming in under these circumstances.   I don't know about contracts but I would not renew most of the senior players contracts when they expire even if they are due a benefit. We need to use what money we have to get young and hungry players in and also give the  academy players a chance.  Maybe 2nd division wouldn't be a bad place to rebuild.

Sorry to disagree but part of a coach's job IS to motivate the players using man-management skills. Someone else asks which batsmen and which bowlers, from the 1st team squad, have improved over past 2 seasons. Answer - none.Therefore blame surely lies at the doors of Frost and Richardson. If it is established players are past it then they should be replaced urgently - not sure if that is JT's  or AG's job but certainly someone needs to take responsibility without delay.
LE - aka John
Reply
#84
(22-06-2017, 04:13 PM)Paul Wrote:
(22-06-2017, 03:15 PM)Rayb Wrote: No one could convince me that there are not major problems with our cricket team that go far beyond the abilities of 11 individual players. To only blame the coaches is equally as bad as only blaming the players, collectively however it is a complete mess and as we employ coaches to apparently coach surely that is a starting point that is difficult to ignore. Can anyone point to a bowler that has improved in the last two or three years, certainly not one who plays regular first team cricket. Equally the same question has to be asked in the batting department which includes two of the most successful and talented English test players of recent times, how can that be? I can't think of first division county where that dismal claim to fame could be equalled and probably no second division one. Every county that I think of has individuals that show considerable signs of improvement, every county has improved by acquisition or by identifying players who might qualify to play for them for a season or two, maybe longer, but not us, quite simply not us. Firstly how about getting Jim to go back to doing what he was doing last season, whatever that was, and getting Ashley to be first team coach. Which is what I believed he was coming back to do rather than some elevated position that we didn't have previously, and he has never done before, secondly find a bowling coach who can improve bowlers and might even know one or two to draft in. Thirdly ask Jack Frost to go back to cutting the grass and get Jonathan to double up as batting coach until the end of the season. Lastly ask our captain if he really wants to be our captain or does he want to concentrate on getting his test place back, which one day will sink in with him and he will realise that it ain't gonna happen!

I agree to a certain extent but do bowlers improve beyond the age of 30, spinners do but seamers only go one way, particularly when they get injuries. why do you think Trott would do better as a batting coach than Tony Frost  and please don't belittle him by calling him Jack Frost.. He probably reads the forum. Jim Troughton captained the side to the title. Not saying the coaches aren't blameless but for me its down to poor recruitment and letting a side get old and doing nothing about it.

They might not be expected to improve once they're past 30, but I don't think they should be expected to decline at quite such a rate either. Just look at Ryan Sidebottom, nearly aged 40 and still taking wickets regularly.
Proud to be a Bear
Reply
#85
Who knows, at this rate we might even pass by Worcestershire if they make a push for promotion and find ourselves swapping places with them. How is it that they can have a few good youngsters and we cannot find any apart from Hain. Today was a new low. Also, can Bell send someone else out to toss just to see if they can do something different. He could tell them what he wants but they could walk out to the middle whilst he is crossing his fingers in the changing room.
Reply
#86
(22-06-2017, 04:13 PM)Paul Wrote:
(22-06-2017, 03:15 PM)Rayb Wrote: No one could convince me that there are not major problems with our cricket team that go far beyond the abilities of 11 individual players. To only blame the coaches is equally as bad as only blaming the players, collectively however it is a complete mess and as we employ coaches to apparently coach surely that is a starting point that is difficult to ignore. Can anyone point to a bowler that has improved in the last two or three years, certainly not one who plays regular first team cricket. Equally the same question has to be asked in the batting department which includes two of the most successful and talented English test players of recent times, how can that be? I can't think of first division county where that dismal claim to fame could be equalled and probably no second division one. Every county that I think of has individuals that show considerable signs of improvement, every county has improved by acquisition or by identifying players who might qualify to play for them for a season or two, maybe longer, but not us, quite simply not us. Firstly how about getting Jim to go back to doing what he was doing last season, whatever that was, and getting Ashley to be first team coach. Which is what I believed he was coming back to do rather than some elevated position that we didn't have previously, and he has never done before, secondly find a bowling coach who can improve bowlers and might even know one or two to draft in. Thirdly ask Jack Frost to go back to cutting the grass and get Jonathan to double up as batting coach until the end of the season. Lastly ask our captain if he really wants to be our captain or does he want to concentrate on getting his test place back, which one day will sink in with him and he will realise that it ain't gonna happen!

I agree to a certain extent but do bowlers improve beyond the age of 30, spinners do but seamers only go one way, particularly when they get injuries. why do you think Trott would do better as a batting coach than Tony Frost  and please don't belittle him by calling him Jack Frost.. He probably reads the forum. Jim Troughton captained the side to the title. Not saying the coaches aren't blameless but for me its down to poor recruitment and letting a side get old and doing nothing about it.
Reply
#87
(22-06-2017, 04:13 PM)Paul Wrote:
(22-06-2017, 03:15 PM)Rayb Wrote: No one could convince me that there are not major problems with our cricket team that go far beyond the abilities of 11 individual players. To only blame the coaches is equally as bad as only blaming the players, collectively however it is a complete mess and as we employ coaches to apparently coach surely that is a starting point that is difficult to ignore. Can anyone point to a bowler that has improved in the last two or three years, certainly not one who plays regular first team cricket. Equally the same question has to be asked in the batting department which includes two of the most successful and talented English test players of recent times, how can that be? I can't think of first division county where that dismal claim to fame could be equalled and probably no second division one. Every county that I think of has individuals that show considerable signs of improvement, every county has improved by acquisition or by identifying players who might qualify to play for them for a season or two, maybe longer, but not us, quite simply not us. Firstly how about getting Jim to go back to doing what he was doing last season, whatever that was, and getting Ashley to be first team coach. Which is what I believed he was coming back to do rather than some elevated position that we didn't have previously, and he has never done before, secondly find a bowling coach who can improve bowlers and might even know one or two to draft in. Thirdly ask Jack Frost to go back to cutting the grass and get Jonathan to double up as batting coach until the end of the season. Lastly ask our captain if he really wants to be our captain or does he want to concentrate on getting his test place back, which one day will sink in with him and he will realise that it ain't gonna happen!

I agree to a certain extent but do bowlers improve beyond the age of 30, spinners do but seamers only go one way, particularly when they get injuries. why do you think Trott would do better as a batting coach than Tony Frost  and please don't belittle him by calling him Jack Frost.. He probably reads the forum. Jim Troughton captained the side to the title. Not saying the coaches aren't blameless but for me its down to poor recruitment and letting a side get old and doing nothing about it.
Reply
#88
In simple terms many of the players are past it and should have gently faded out over the last few seasons... one or two a year given applause from the crowd in a late September afternoon for the last time..... and to be fair to the players - if they are past it.... its difficult to blame them for poor performances. So what of the captain... well is he captain material or is he a great player coming to the end of his career and given the arm band? What of the management structure - to me it really seems to be too cozy... all the ex Warwickshire players unable to sort out the problems in case they step on people toes.... there needs to be a mix of those who understand their way round the club - and those who can make the big decisions. Finally the Warwickshire system is failing... the county system doesn't seem to offer much to those who parents weren't born in a twee village or didn't go to the right school. Something has gone wrong with the system - what of Birmingham as the second biggest city and its ethnic population.... perhaps the focus is on the wrong thing (perhaps harshly - but running too many non first class teams etc. etc.)... why is Giles described as Director of sport? What is his role? What of Troughton, Frost and Richardson? What was the legacy of another Warwickshire stalwart ... Dougie?

Difficult questions and more .... some of them are very uncomfortable to ask and some may not have an answer..... Perhaps its just a cyclical thing.... one of those things that just happens every few years to most clubs? Many 'big' ide have had a long period in Division 2.
Reply
[-] The following 1 user Likes Warleybear's post:
Paul
#89
I'm sorry but "why do I think that Trott would do better as a batting coach than Tony (I might be a bit sensitive) Frost" firstly because he's a bloody good batsmen that's internationally respected, secondly because he couldn't do any worse and thirdly.................I don't need a thirdley.
Reply
#90
Bell was always going to be captain of the club once his Test career came to a close and he wanted to play for Warwickshire. As a youngster he captained sides and when he was England 'A' captain the press raved over his decision making and he seemed made to be a captain. I think what has happened is that he has put too much pressure on himself and still thinking he could get his place back in the England side has not helped (Although Vince, Balance, etc have not done any better) every time he goes out to bat. I think his batting is affecting his captaincy and because he is captain, it is having a major effect on his batting. There are unfortunately no other candidates as no one in the side can actually say they are having a good season and that taking over (If it was needed) would not make things worse. For now, we either change a few players (Who) and give a few younger ones (Who) a run out for a few games or we trust the shambles we have now to try and get things going again. On the commentary, a lot was talked about how everyone fought hard yesterday and that not one of the side should be accused of "Throwing in the towel..". But, to not even reach 100 today means is was all a big waste of time.
Reply
#91
(22-06-2017, 06:26 PM)Rayb Wrote: I'm sorry but "why do I think that Trott would do better as a batting coach than Tony (I might be a bit sensitive) Frost" firstly because he's a bloody good batsmen that's internationally respected, secondly because he couldn't do any worse and thirdly.................I don't need a thirdley.

Yes that's fair enough but he's one of the older players I would excuse from criticism and maybe when he retires from playing that might be an option. I just think the whole thing is too cosy at Warwickshire with players being at the club so long. It wern't so long ago we were thrashing sides like Essex

Reply
#92
(22-06-2017, 09:05 PM)paulbear Wrote: Bell was always going to be captain of the club once his Test career came to a close and he wanted to play for Warwickshire. As a youngster he captained sides and when he was England 'A' captain the press raved over his decision making and he seemed made to be a captain. I think what has happened is that he has put too much pressure on himself and still thinking he could get his place back in the England side has not helped (Although Vince, Balance, etc have not done any better) every time he goes out to bat. I think his batting is affecting his captaincy and because he is captain, it is having a major effect on his batting. There are unfortunately no other candidates as no one in the side can actually say they are having a good season and that taking over (If it was needed) would not make things worse. For now, we either change a few players (Who) and give a few younger ones (Who) a run out for a few games or we trust the shambles we have now to try and get things going again. On the commentary, a lot was talked about how everyone fought hard yesterday and that not one of the side should be accused of "Throwing in the towel..". But, to not even reach 100 today means is was all a big waste of time.

There is one (very) obvious candidate.  Someone (probaby the only one), who is having a good season for us (in fact has had a lot of good seasons), is very experienced at International and County level and has the personality to pull this off (and has proved to be a 'true Bear' over the years).  He has just announced his retirement from International cricket, so will potentially be around Edbgaston full time for a few seasons yet.  Jeetan Patel !
Reply
#93
Jeets certainly has the passion. I can imagine him being utterly livid with our displays this season.
Paul fondled my onion bags.
Reply
[-] The following 2 users Like Lilly's post:
GrizzlyBear, Leicester Exile
#94
I think problems lie deeper than changing captain. You cant just quick fix this.

Reply
[-] The following 1 user Likes Paul's post:
narsty simon
#95
Certainly not, there is no solution that can be achieved this season as it is impossible to have such a huge turnaround in playing and coaching staff which is what is required. It will take a few years for us to resolve the problems which we will be attempting to do in Division 2 next season.

The gross mismanagement over the past few years that has led to this position is abhorrent. Everyone could see it coming yet no one has attempted to address it, instead we let two batsmen under the age of 30 go last winter without replacing them.
Paul fondled my onion bags.
Reply
#96
(23-06-2017, 10:40 AM)Paul Wrote: I think problems lie deeper than changing captain. You cant just quick fix this.

I agree, but replacing a woefully inadequate Bell as Captain, is a start.  He can't continue much longer, he just can't seem to motivate the team any more, he's making bad decisions in the field, his confidence is rock bottom and it's certainly affecting his batting.  He has to go - soon - and Jeets is the obvious candidate.
Reply
#97
Yes its a start I guess. We probably need to win 5 of our remaining games to get out of trouble.

Reply
#98
(23-06-2017, 11:10 AM)Paul Wrote: Yes its a start I guess. We probably need to win 5 of our remaining games to get out of trouble.

It is all too little too late this season .......... a complete review of the whole club structure is required top to bottom.

This summer Edgbaston PLC must have made a fortune out of "hiring the ground out" for International matches etc (and there is more to come), at the same time allowing Warwickshire County Cricket Club to become a complete, abysmal, embarrassing shambles, who haven't set a playing foot in the County for weeks and weeks.

The balance sheet will look great at the AGM and there will be big bonuses I am sure, but where was the close season investment and will there be any next winter?

The Members need answers and reasons ............. EVERY close follower of Warwickshire knew this was going to happen this season when players were released and not replaced, are any of surprised ?

I am now past fuming, we need answers, changes and to be told what is going happen to put this right ......... Warwickshire are a big Club who play in a test match venue and should not have been allowed to drift in this chaotic mess.

The men at the top need to tell us exactly where we go from here and what plans they have to put it right.
Reply
#99
(23-06-2017, 11:01 AM)Bald Reynard Wrote:
(23-06-2017, 10:40 AM)Paul Wrote: I think problems lie deeper than changing captain. You cant just quick fix this.

I agree, but replacing a woefully inadequate Bell as Captain, is a start.  He can't continue much longer, he just can't seem to motivate the team any more, he's making bad decisions in the field, his confidence is rock bottom and it's certainly affecting his batting.  He has to go - soon - and Jeets is the obvious candidate.

Sussex have (just) changed their Captain half way through the season - and they are not having half as bad a run as us.  Luke Wright has said the Captaincy has affected his form and he has asked to be relieved of the position.  I really hope Belly does the same - better than Ash doing the business.
Reply
[-] The following 1 user Likes Bald Reynard's post:
narsty simon
(23-06-2017, 01:13 PM)South Coast Bear Wrote:
(23-06-2017, 11:10 AM)Paul Wrote: Yes its a start I guess. We probably need to win 5 of our remaining games to get out of trouble.

It is all too little too late this season .......... a complete review of the whole club structure is required top to bottom.

This summer Edgbaston PLC must have made a fortune out of "hiring the ground out" for International matches etc (and there is more to come), at the same time allowing Warwickshire County Cricket Club to become a complete, abysmal, embarrassing shambles, who haven't set a playing foot in the County for weeks and weeks.

The balance sheet will look great at the AGM and there will be big bonuses I am sure, but where was the close season investment and will there be any next winter?

The Members need answers and reasons ............. EVERY close follower of Warwickshire knew this was going to happen this season when players were released and not replaced, are any of surprised ?

I am now past fuming, we need answers, changes and to be told what is going happen to put this right ......... Warwickshire are a big Club who play in a test match venue and should not have been allowed to drift in this chaotic mess.

The men at the top need to tell us exactly where we go from here and what plans they have to put it right.

We were exhibiting relegation form in CCD1 as far back as late summer 2015. I recall a complete shellacking by Hants away that I attended that set alarm bells ringing then.

The T2 and RLC wins merely glossed over what most observers could plainly see. Yet even in March - when pressed on the lack of signings - our new DOC was extolling the virtues of an experienced squad and stating that he could see no reason to strengthen it.

As you say - the  Edgbaston "brand" is strong and - on the face of it - very profitable. Although as a reluctant BCC council taxpayer I still baulk at the fact the club owes a huge sum to the city that is unlikely to ever be repaid.

However - and please take note Mr Snowball and your associates - I do not and never will support a "brand". I am a member of Warwickshire County Cricket Club and am saddened at having foisted upon me possibly the worst performing side I have seen since the early 1980s.

As Mike Taylor said repeatedly on BBC commentary yesterday  there is no faulting the attitude of the players. It's just that time and time again they have been surpassed this season by younger, better sides who have a greater degree of hunger, are better coached and have, for the most part, long careers ahead instead of behind them.

Most of us here are not professional coaches. We are merely educated followers of the game and club we love. Seeing us reduced to a laughing stock and divisional whipping boys is appalling.

Knowing full well at the start of the season that was the inevitable consequence of years of under-investment in players and under-achievement in development somehow makes it worse.
Although a previous poster, having performed a forensic review of the 2016 accounts, stated we were actually, technically insolvent. Perhaps that informs the lack of investment on the playing side.

Answers? I have none. A change of captain must occur at very least. A root and branch reform of the coaching and scouting structure must follow. And KOS needs to take his suit off and get hands on. But with a 40pt deficit we're already in D2 and it's difficult to see how the addition of 2 journeyman Kiwis is going to give us any T20 consolation.

Oh well at least there will be some cricket - weather permitting - played in the county next week after a 6 week hiatus. Something else that should never be allowed to happen again.

Liker you SCB - I am past fuming. There is a kind of perverse pleasure in watching sides we have caned in the past smashing their own county records against us.

Perhaps the repeated humiliations will garner a degree of response from senior figures within the club. Although 24 hours from this latest defeat, the silence is deafening.
Reply
[-] The following 1 user Likes DaveC's post:
South Coast Bear


Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)