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EU Referendum
#1
(01-03-2016, 08:53 PM)Warleybear Wrote: I've changed my mind.... I'm out. I'm now convinced that the politics of fear are being played out by those undemocratic elements who wish to drive the country down the toilet on the back of an enlarged eu and mass migration. Dave .... Why have we never had a vote each time the eu is enlarged? The state knows best? I have not had it explained to me why mass unskilled Euro migration is good .... Except for the ponzi argument of keeping wages down and rents and property prices high. No thought on the hidden costs of health, education, transport etc. If the eu had been more democratic about uncontrolled enlargement, then we wouldn't be in this position of having to vote. A vote to stay is a vote for the undemocratic nanny supper state. Cameron's vague promises being a fig leaf for what is to come. If we vote to stay it seems that we will have dropped our pants and be ready to be Rodgered..... Just like Aston Villa are at the moment..... Bringing us back on thread.

Started a proper thread as I don't want to continue intruding on private grief on he AV thread!

And there you go WB. You see with you Outers it's all about emotion and SHOUTING.

The Outers have had a quarter of a century to formulate a decent argument and all we getting are generalised ones about supra-national power and immigration or complaints that the Remain campaign aren't playing fairly by promoting Project Fear. Newsflash - this is politics. Complaining about tactics is like moaning about England preparing test pitches for Jimmy Anderson and Stuart Broad to bowl on!

I'm as Eurosceptic as they come and if we were voting on whether to join I'd almost certainly vote to stay out. But we are where we are. I've spent my entire life from the age of 10 inside the EU and until and unless I get a realistic alternative laid out for leaving I'm voting to remain. No amount of shouting and emotional blackmail is going to change my mind. Until you Outers come up with a proper plan you can expect to get slaughtered on 23rd June.
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#2
My views are quite simple. We can't sustain an ever increasing population. We are a small Island. net migration every year is crazy. I don't understand why people don't care about that. i don't believe for one minute that the economy will suffer that badly if we leave. the only way we can fully control our border is by leaving. Anyway anybody that has worked hard all their lives, with interest rates so crap, banks offering nothing. Its no good for people with savings now!

Can you explain to me Dave what we have to loose if we leave? The politicians just give you this fear stuff which i dont trust anyway. i dont believe we will get the deal we want with europe if we stay. Cameron is full of bs.

the way i see it is the economy may suffer a little but migration will improve massively.

Theres no us and them Dave just people who care about the country. I'm sure theres a lot of people who are undecided. a lot of middle England could go either way on this I think.

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#3
(02-03-2016, 12:19 PM)Paul Wrote:  the only way we can fully control our border is by leaving.


But one of the oft-quoted "Leave" scenarios and one that we may hear more of is that when we depart the EU we will join the EFTA group of countries.

That group still have to abide by EU regulations and allow free movement of EU labour across borders. So what's the difference to now? Do you propose this scenario or splendid isolation and years of bi-lateral negotiations with each EU country as well as NAFTA, ASEAN etc and all of the economic uncertainty and instability that will result?

Sorry Paul but this is cloud cuckoo land.

In the late 90s when our late-lamented Labour government had an open door policy for IT workers from India and pre-Eu eastern Europe, I found my own skill-set unwanted in this country but was able easily to get work over in Frankfurt. The open market meant that I underwent a phone interview on the Friday and flew in to start work on the following Monday. My involvement there led on to the establishment of a UK centre for the company I worked for. This was established in Derby and led to 5 more years of very lucrative work for me and 11 other IT professionals. For me this was an excellent illustration of how well the EU works. I never earned a degree. I suspect that if the EU had not existed my ability to ply my trade in Europe would have been severely curtailed. For example I could not have easily worked in Switzerland without a degree. Why should I deny the opportunity for others?
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#4
Out of the EU will enable us to -
1/Control our borders
2/Decide who comes in and who does not come in
3/Make ALL our own laws whereas now 80% come from unelected EU directives.

I do not see how your job situation could not have happened with UK outside. Are you trying to say that Germany do not appoint any workers from outside the EU?
Over in France the French are given priority over other nationals when it comes to jobs

We seemed to have managed quite well before the EU.
Surely the likes of Lamont and Lawson - 2 of the best chancellors this country has had in our mifetime - can't be so wrong. Even Enoch Powell had the vision to see what the EU would become.

Return the EU to what we originally voted for - a trade agreement - and I might just support the Inners.
LE - aka John
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Paul
#5
Yes 100% agree LE. We might sit on opposite sides with politics but its good we agree on this. Its so worrying, the extra strain on the health service, housing demands exceed supply so house prices are rising, even during zero inflation times and people are using the system to buy to let, charging exorbitant rent. So people can sit on their backsides raking the money on while hard workers,who cant afford to buy are paying out most of their earnings in rent. Its morally wrong.

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#6
(02-03-2016, 01:40 PM)DaveC Wrote:
(02-03-2016, 12:19 PM)Paul Wrote:  the only way we can fully control our border is by leaving.


But one of the oft-quoted "Leave" scenarios and one that we may hear more of is that when we depart the EU we will join the EFTA group of countries.

That group still have to abide by EU regulations and allow free movement of EU labour across borders. So what's the difference to now? Do you propose this scenario or splendid isolation and years of bi-lateral negotiations with each EU country as well as NAFTA, ASEAN etc and all of the economic uncertainty and instability that will result?

Sorry Paul but this is cloud cuckoo land.

In the late 90s when our late-lamented Labour government had an open door policy for IT workers from India and pre-Eu eastern Europe, I found my own skill-set unwanted in this country but was able easily to get work over in Frankfurt. The open market meant that I underwent a phone interview on the Friday and flew in to start work on the following Monday. My involvement there led on to the establishment of a UK centre for the company I worked for. This was established in Derby and led to 5 more years of very lucrative work for me and 11 other IT professionals. For me this was an excellent illustration of how well the EU works. I never earned a degree. I suspect that if the EU had not existed my ability to ply my trade in Europe would have been severely curtailed. For example I could not have easily worked in Switzerland without a degree. Why should I deny the opportunity for others?

It's actually appears to be an example of how it now doesnt work.... The constant and undemocratic enlargement of the EU has lead to a flood of cheap labour that is funded by in work benefits that puts pressure on health, education, transport etc. The EU based on a dozen countries would have allowed you to fly off to Frankfurt..... Instead we get Greece being allowed to join the Euro without proper due dillegence and nearly collapsing. Romania and Bulgaria join with a largely peasant population and different economic standards to much of Europe. We are now in a position where we have a significant proportion of the population who are very concerned by the irrational polotics of euroland, it's continuos undemocratic growth and its burden that it puts on our sovereign state. Why were Romania, Bulgaria etc. allowed in with very few controls? The pro euro brigade seem to have few arguments in favour of staying... Apart from fear and claiming everyone is shouting .... What next ... the loss of benefits of cheap flights and mobile roaming costs. Why werent we allowed a vote each time the EU expanded? Democracy may have stopped this collapse happening.... But Brussels knew best?

I am very pro European.... The EU could have worked.... But it is currently badly failing..... I doubt it will get better and worse is likely to come this summer..... Euro politicians can't even get a grip on the latest wave of migration into Europe..... Merkel shouts yes and we all pay the price? The EU is sadly learching into political and economic crisis.... This summer could be a tipping point for many countries.
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#7
The hidden aim of those at the top of the EU became clear when they produced a flag (which they attempted to force on every car's number plate in europe) then a national anthem and currency and judges. Even driving licence and passports are Euro. It could so easily have worked and for the sake of continued peace in Europe I hoped it would work but it has now become a massive gravy train for quite a few people
LE - aka John
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#8
That's my problem .... I wasn't euro skeptic..... I have been made so by the lack of transparent democracy and the rush for enlargement. Who next .... Turkey, Serbia, Boznia, Montenegro.... Albania?

Meanwhile the politics of fear continues..... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu...m-35712463

Interesting that a problem (what ever of your views on it - refugee / economic migrant / numbers etc.) that the EU has poorly handled becomes an exit issue? The EU needs to take a grip and quickly manage the problem.

One thing for certain - even an in vote will still leave a massive credibility problem that will roll across Europe this summer.
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#9
Yes idle threats. Its a waste of time anyway. We know what the end result will be. People are too scared to change. We'll sleepwalk into 200 million population no NHS and families crammed into one bedroom.

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#10
Hopefully the referendum will get people in other countries calling for a referendum. I believe given the chance the results in other countries like France Germany Holland would be the start of a break up of this massive bureaucratic monstrosity
LE - aka John
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#11
I think we either leave in a controlled way .... or as part of an uncontrolled tidlewave of uncertainty that races across Europe over the next 18 months. Whatever the result there are a very significant number of people who think the eu is badly failing.... It's successes very limited.

On a totally separate issue, I see that the burden of those arriving in this country is starting to cause problems.... also appears that they are being unfairly dumped in some more industrial areas and not in some of the more leafy prosperous areas. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35719489
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#12
I don't favour big, centralised government. Too much power gets into the hands of too few (and probably the wrong) people with the interests of minorities and weaker sections of society getting trampled. For that reason I voted against joining the EEC in 1975. In my professional life, I came into contact with the European Commission several times, even being the UK representative on a number of sub-committees. None of that made me feel any more comfortable. In my experience, the unelected and unaccountable Eurocrats have their own agendas which have little to do with the sound functioning of the societies they are governing. Slightly surprisingly given the undoubted attractions of being a Eurocrat, they are also not very good. The failure to deal with Greece's economy or the influx of migrants is at least in part because "Brussels" lacks competence. I don't want to be part of it and will vote out in June.

I am troubled by the thought that this lines me up alongside Michael Gove and Nigel Lawson amongst other swivel eyed loons. (Them not me.) I am also troubled that, with the SNP having cut the head off the Labour Party, there is no likelihood of anything other than a Conservative or Conservative-led government in this country for the foreseeable future. The idea that I could live the rest of my life in a country run by braying public schoolboys intent on grabbing an even bigger share of the country's wealth for themselves and their mates with no counterbalance from membership of the EU is not a pleasant prospect.

It's heads they win and tails I lose I'm afraid but I'll still toddle off and vote out. And expect to maintain my record of voting for the losing side in every referendum.
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Paul
#13
Don't underestimate Lawson when it comes to finances. Also most senior politicians start talking a lot of sense and use a lot of wisdom when they are no longer in the corridors of power. Also don't underestimate Corbyn - I can see Labour start to gain more and more support the more people see him stick to his beliefs - a more frightening prospect than Cameron and his mates. Not sure I understand your critisism of men whose parents sent them to public schools some of our finest went to these schools - Churchill for one.

Time for a revolution !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
LE - aka John
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#14
We don't seem to have too many referendum Grizzly.... ;-)

If we had one when there was going to be enlargement of the EU, then perhaps we wouldn't be having an in / out vote and Europe wouldn't be on the edge of a collapse (with or without) the UK as Mother Merkel looks on.... In fact Camerons 'deal' with the EU calls for the UK actually supporting continued enlargement of the EU to new members but with new mechanisms (sic) in place to "prevent vast migrations across the Continent" (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32695399). That doesn't sound very democratic to me? No vote mentioned? So Turkey, Albania etc. can join without the citizens having a vote? What of the so called break on benefits.... how long does that last?..... until the dust settles and the vote is over?

I believe that we missed chance to restore a measure of constitutional coherence / national sovereignty over key issues like democracy, sovereignty, continued enlargement and mass economic migration etc. It was a deal that convinced very few people who want to stay either in or leave. The EU, with each enlargement, has become more undemocratic, more bloated and impacted extremely negatively on many areas of this country. The next 18 months will sadly show how much the EU is unable to deal with key issues that will lead to the uncontrolled break up of the union. There are many examples of this inability... the procrastination over the wave of migrants last summer being one - what are the plans to deal with that this year...... The Eu are probably still in a meeting in a smoked filled committee room talking about it - their only recommendation..... mama Merkel knows best?
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#15
[quote='GrizzlyBear' pid='91424' dateline='1457088449'
It's heads they win and tails I lose I'm afraid but I'll still toddle off and vote out. And expect to maintain my record of voting for the losing side in every referendum.
[/quote]

Wink yes me too

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#16
How many referendums have there been south of the border? I cant remember - one?

There was one to join the common market, but Parliamentary sovereignty normally knows best...... especially when it comes to substantive issues like "should Turkey and Albania" join the EU?
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#17
There was one a couple of years ago on electoral reform but once again the masses decided against change. 75 the one to join the common market wasn't it. I see the Govt are planning to close the chemists. Cut out the middle man I guess and just have faceless people in warehouses dispensing the medication.

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#18
Yes it's just the 75 referendum on joining the EEC and the one in the last parliament on proportional representation. In US sports parlance, though, I am 0 for 2 in referendum votes.
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#19
So you two aren't the "Easyjet" generation who'll tell the pollsters they'll vote in then..... who celebrated the 'euphoric' moment of the new creative economy with a BA in photography whilst their job prospects were swamped by cheap unskilled immigration from Eastern Europe. They celebrate the reason for remaining in the EU as being able to take cheap flights to Tirana (or indeed Frankfurt) at 3.30am on a Thursday morning .....

Problem is that they wont be here to vote........... they'll be getting their parents (who they still live with due to the housing shortage) to drive them to a nice local airport like Stanstead LOL ;-)

We needed some democracy in the EU..... EU expansion will continue to happen and nothing in Camerons little piece of paper will allow us to have a vote on it. Why is he actively supporting EU enlargement without the public having a say?
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#20
To me the expansion of the EU is the single biggest threat to world peace. Russia see this as a threat to their own security when so many former USSR countries are now members of EU
LE - aka John
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