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England v Pakistan, In UAE
#61
I saw our old friend Graham Wagg bowl some slow left arm at Uxbridge a season or so back. Normally he's a trundling seamer.
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#62
(07-11-2015, 10:40 PM)GrizzlyBear Wrote: I saw our old friend Graham Wagg bowl some slow left arm at Uxbridge a season or so back. Normally he's a trundling seamer.

Yes, he's very much in the Malcolm Nash mould so I could imagine him plying some slow left-arm.
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#63
(07-11-2015, 04:53 PM)Paul Wrote: True, didn't Ben Stokes bowl a few overs of spin in this series unless my mind is playing tricks with me. I know somebody did! Yes Tony Greig was good in both aspects as was Sobers.

Good Spinners like Batsmen and Bowlers (and Wicket-keepers) are born they are not manufactured - Tony Greig was an OK Spin Bowler nothing special - Sobers was the exception however.

Moeen (in both Test and Spin bowling terms) is a 'babby' - What might help his cause? - Well a spin bowling coach for one thing - Remember when Graeme Swann played for England they had Mushtaq Ahmed as SBC! My Dad was a genuine Off-Spinner and he always impressed on me that he got more wickets with flight than spin - Spinners (both Offies and Leggies) take time to mature.

Moeen needs to work on his skills - Practice, Practice and more Practice + He needs the England powers that be to keep the faith and hopefully he will deliver which unfortunately I do not think will be the case for Jos Buttler - A manufactured Wicket-keeper with technical batting weaknesses at Test level - A good one day/T20 baseball player BUT in my opinion not a Test Cricketer# - Now there's setting myself up for criticism eh? 

If you are going to have a Batsman keep wicket (alla Alec Stewart) then he has to score big runs!

#My record's not too bad though - In 2007 in Sydney Australia an ECB qualified Coach told me that Jimmy Anderson would never make a Test Fast Bowler - When I said I thought he was talking rollocks he replied that I was the one talking rollocks - The fact that Anderson now has over 400 test wickets and is England's leading wicket-taker proves my point eh?
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#64
(08-11-2015, 11:12 PM)DJL Wrote:
(07-11-2015, 04:53 PM)Paul Wrote: True, didn't Ben Stokes bowl a few overs of spin in this series unless my mind is playing tricks with me. I know somebody did! Yes Tony Greig was good in both aspects as was Sobers.

Good Spinners like Batsmen and Bowlers (and Wicket-keepers) are born they are not manufactured - Tony Greig was an OK Spin Bowler nothing special - Sobers was the exception however.

Moeen (in both Test and Spin bowling terms) is a 'babby' - What might help his cause? - Well a spin bowling coach for one thing - Remember when Graeme Swann played for England they had Mushtaq Ahmed as SBC! My Dad was a genuine Off-Spinner and he always impressed on me that he got more wickets with flight than spin - Spinners (both Offies and Leggies) take time to mature.

Moeen needs to work on his skills - Practice, Practice and more Practice + He needs the England powers that be to keep the faith and hopefully he will deliver which unfortunately I do not think will be the case for Jos Buttler - A manufactured Wicket-keeper with technical batting weaknesses at Test level - A good one day/T20 baseball player BUT in my opinion not a Test Cricketer# - Now there's setting myself up for criticism eh? 

If you are going to have a Batsman keep wicket (alla Alec Stewart) then he has to score big runs!

#My record's not too bad though - In 2007 in Sydney Australia an ECB qualified Coach told me that Jimmy Anderson would never make a Test Fast Bowler - When I said I thought he was talking rollocks he replied that I was the one talking rollocks - The fact that Anderson now has over 400 test wickets and is England's leading wicket-taker proves my point eh?

I'm not sure that I follow your reasoning about spin bowlers being born not made.  Surely it's a mixture of natural talent and hard work, hence the need for lots of practice - back to what Jeetan said about English spinners not working hard enough.
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#65
(09-11-2015, 10:42 AM)Terry Wrote:
(08-11-2015, 11:12 PM)DJL Wrote:
(07-11-2015, 04:53 PM)Paul Wrote: True, didn't Ben Stokes bowl a few overs of spin in this series unless my mind is playing tricks with me. I know somebody did! Yes Tony Greig was good in both aspects as was Sobers.

Good Spinners like Batsmen and Bowlers (and Wicket-keepers) are born they are not manufactured - Tony Greig was an OK Spin Bowler nothing special - Sobers was the exception however.

Moeen (in both Test and Spin bowling terms) is a 'babby' - What might help his cause? - Well a spin bowling coach for one thing - Remember when Graeme Swann played for England they had Mushtaq Ahmed as SBC! My Dad was a genuine Off-Spinner and he always impressed on me that he got more wickets with flight than spin - Spinners (both Offies and Leggies) take time to mature.

Moeen needs to work on his skills - Practice, Practice and more Practice + He needs the England powers that be to keep the faith and hopefully he will deliver which unfortunately I do not think will be the case for Jos Buttler - A manufactured Wicket-keeper with technical batting weaknesses at Test level - A good one day/T20 baseball player BUT in my opinion not a Test Cricketer# - Now there's setting myself up for criticism eh? 

If you are going to have a Batsman keep wicket (alla Alec Stewart) then he has to score big runs!

#My record's not too bad though - In 2007 in Sydney Australia an ECB qualified Coach told me that Jimmy Anderson would never make a Test Fast Bowler - When I said I thought he was talking rollocks he replied that I was the one talking rollocks - The fact that Anderson now has over 400 test wickets and is England's leading wicket-taker proves my point eh?

I'm not sure that I follow your reasoning about spin bowlers being born not made.  Surely it's a mixture of natural talent and hard work, hence the need for lots of practice - back to what Jeetan said about English spinners not working hard enough.

Sorry that you didn't understand my point - I''ll try and simplify.
To be a Bowler, Batsman or Wicket-keeper the basics need to be there in the first place. 

If you re-read my Post you will notice that I make the point that Moeen needs to Practice and Practice (picking up on what you say Jeetan (Patel?) said - Patel's not a big spinner of the ball is he? - He uses flight and a change of pace as part of his armoury which is why he is so successful).

However if you don't have the basics in the first place it doesn't matter how much you practice (You can practice 'till the cows come home  but you ain't gonna get any better - Look at Graham Hick as a part-time 'spin' bowler he could get the ball to turn out of the rough but that didn't make him a genuine Off Spinner did it? -  If you have the basics it helps your development -  if you have someone that can mentor you/help with your development going forward even better - Sadly that person seems to be missing at the moment, hence the fact that England would appear not to have a Spinners Coach - Robert Croft might be an option if the ECB could drag him screaming and kicking away from his beloved Glamorgan.

Spin Bowling at First Class/Test Level is a specialist role - Very few part-time spinners make the grade do they? Moeen Ali genuinely spins the ball - He needs help to develop his skills - The kind of help that Graeme Swann (Mushtaq Ahmed) and Shane Warne (Terry Jenner) had - Mind you I don't think he'll be anywhere as successful as those two BUT he'll do a good job for England nonetheless.

England (unless they have a better alternative) should stick with Moeen - Perhaps England should offer Jeetan Patel the job of Spinners Coach when he retires - What do you think?

I hope I've helped you understand where I'm coming from - Best wishes.
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#66
Thanks.
When I say that it's a mixture of natural talent and hard work and you say the basics need to be there is the first place we are probably saying almost the same thing.
Where we seem to disagree (maybe) is when you assume that dual purpose bowlers don't have the spin bowling basics.  Some, like Tony Greig, may have started as seam bowlers and developed their spinning skills later.  Others, like Sobers, started with spin and then took up pace and seam.  Some who ended up as decent spinners started in a quicker style - Ashley Giles is a good example.  Don Shepherd started as a medium pacer and then bowled mainly off-cutters and off spin.  He took 2218 first class wickets so was a pretty good bowler, possibly the best ever not to get a Test cap.
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#67
(09-11-2015, 04:22 PM)Terry Wrote: Thanks.
When I say that it's a mixture of natural talent and hard work and you say the basics need to be there is the first place we are probably saying almost the same thing.
Where we seem to disagree (maybe) is when you assume that dual purpose bowlers don't have the spin bowling basics.  Some, like Tony Greig, may have started as seam bowlers and developed their spinning skills later.  Others, like Sobers, started with spin and then took up pace and seam.  Some who ended up as decent spinners started in a quicker style - Ashley Giles is a good example.  Don Shepherd started as a medium pacer and then bowled mainly off-cutters and off spin.  He took 2218 first class wickets so was a pretty good bowler, possibly the best ever not to get a Test cap.

You could include my late relative Bob Appleyard (Yorkshire CCC & England) in that I think? Don Shepherd now you are talking - Had many a conversion with Don about his style of bowling and I am sure he would be the first to admit that it 'evolved' - You could also include Derek Underwood in that also - If you watch Phil Tufnell bowl (and I am sure you did) you will see the Derek Underwood influence in his run up and delivery stride etc. Ashley Giles you are quite right in stating started as a medium pace bowler but correct me if I am wrong he changed his style due to a back injury/problem did he not?

You are absolutely right that there are cricketers past and present who could change styles BUT very few deliver at top level. When I was a kid at school I had the unfortunate experience of having a day's coaching at Edgbaston in the presence (and I put it no stronger than that) of Derrif Taylor. When I came out of the nets DT (who knew my Father quite well) came up to me and said that as a Fast Bowler I'd make a bxxxxy good Off-Spinner - Tiger Smith however who'd been watching on from outside the nets said to me "What did that old fool say to you then?" After I told him he replied "BXXXXy old fool what he knows about cricket tuppence wouldn't get his haircut" - My Dad said something similar when I got home only in much stronger language.

My point - Its all about perception isn't it? Tony Greig a good all-round cricketer - Useful Batsman not a bad Seam Bowler but an average Off Spinner don't you think? Garfield Sobers considered to be the greatest allrounder of his generation - When I saw him play he struggled with both bat and ball - Crazy eh? However anyone who saw him at his very best would see things differently.

I think in the modern game generally (certainly first class/test level) where you start is where you finish (unless circumstances dictate otherwise) - Once a Seam Bowler always a Seam Bowler eh? I would never make assumptions (as I was taught that to ASSUME makes an ASS out of U and ME) and certainly would never doubt that a Seam Bowler could become a Slow Bowler whether or not he could be an effective top line Spin Bowler well of that I am not sure - A bit like Jos Buttler maybe thinking he could be a top Wicket-keeper (I won't hold my breath).

Great to talk with people who know their cricket - Kind regards.
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#68
(09-11-2015, 05:15 PM)DJL Wrote:
(09-11-2015, 04:22 PM)Terry Wrote: Thanks.
When I say that it's a mixture of natural talent and hard work and you say the basics need to be there is the first place we are probably saying almost the same thing.
Where we seem to disagree (maybe) is when you assume that dual purpose bowlers don't have the spin bowling basics.  Some, like Tony Greig, may have started as seam bowlers and developed their spinning skills later.  Others, like Sobers, started with spin and then took up pace and seam.  Some who ended up as decent spinners started in a quicker style - Ashley Giles is a good example.  Don Shepherd started as a medium pacer and then bowled mainly off-cutters and off spin.  He took 2218 first class wickets so was a pretty good bowler, possibly the best ever not to get a Test cap.

You could include my late relative Bob Appleyard (Yorkshire CCC & England) in that I think? Don Shepherd now you are talking - Had many a conversion with Don about his style of bowling and I am sure he would be the first to admit that it 'evolved' - You could also include Derek Underwood in that also - If you watch Phil Tufnell bowl (and I am sure you did) you will see the Derek Underwood influence in his run up and delivery stride etc. Ashley Giles you are quite right in stating started as a medium pace bowler but correct me if I am wrong he changed his style due to a back injury/problem did he not?

You are absolutely right that there are cricketers past and present who could change styles BUT very few deliver at top level. When I was a kid at school I had the unfortunate experience of having a day's coaching at Edgbaston in the presence (and I put it no stronger than that) of Derrif Taylor. When I came out of the nets DT (who knew my Father quite well) came up to me and said that as a Fast Bowler I'd make a bxxxxy good Off-Spinner - Tiger Smith however who'd been watching on from outside the nets said to me "What did that old fool say to you then?" After I told him he replied "BXXXXy old fool what he knows about cricket tuppence wouldn't get his haircut" - My Dad said something similar when I got home only in much stronger language.

My point - Its all about perception isn't it? Tony Greig a good all-round cricketer - Useful Batsman not a bad Seam Bowler but an average Off Spinner don't you think? Garfield Sobers considered to be the greatest allrounder of his generation - When I saw him play he struggled with both bat and ball - Crazy eh? However anyone who saw him at his very best would see things differently.

I think in the modern game generally (certainly first class/test level) where you start is where you finish (unless circumstances dictate otherwise) - Once a Seam Bowler always a Seam Bowler eh? I would never make assumptions (as I was taught that to ASSUME makes an ASS out of U and ME) and certainly would never doubt that a Seam Bowler could become a Slow Bowler whether or not he could be an effective top line Spin Bowler well of that I am not sure - A bit like Jos Buttler maybe thinking he could be a top Wicket-keeper (I won't hold my breath).

Great to talk with people who know their cricket - Kind regards.

Likewise!
If Bob Appleyard was a relative of yours, I assume you've probably read his biography by Stephen Chalke and Derek Hodgson.  The sub-title which describes it as a remarkable story gets it right.  I had a chat to Stephen Chalke in the Press Box at Edgbaston earlier this year and he is someone else who really knows his cricket.
Yes, I also encountered Derief Taylor and although I quite liked him, I really didn't learn much from him (which may partly have been my fault but I don't think so).  I also got a brief tip from Tiger that was worth more than several hours of coaching.  I just wasn't good enough to benefit fully from it.
Anyway, it's good to exchange ideas.
Keep up-to-date with County Cricket at http://deepextracover.com/
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#69
(09-11-2015, 06:17 PM)Terry Wrote:
(09-11-2015, 05:15 PM)DJL Wrote:
(09-11-2015, 04:22 PM)Terry Wrote: Thanks.
When I say that it's a mixture of natural talent and hard work and you say the basics need to be there is the first place we are probably saying almost the same thing.
Where we seem to disagree (maybe) is when you assume that dual purpose bowlers don't have the spin bowling basics.  Some, like Tony Greig, may have started as seam bowlers and developed their spinning skills later.  Others, like Sobers, started with spin and then took up pace and seam.  Some who ended up as decent spinners started in a quicker style - Ashley Giles is a good example.  Don Shepherd started as a medium pacer and then bowled mainly off-cutters and off spin.  He took 2218 first class wickets so was a pretty good bowler, possibly the best ever not to get a Test cap.

You could include my late relative Bob Appleyard (Yorkshire CCC & England) in that I think? Don Shepherd now you are talking - Had many a conversion with Don about his style of bowling and I am sure he would be the first to admit that it 'evolved' - You could also include Derek Underwood in that also - If you watch Phil Tufnell bowl (and I am sure you did) you will see the Derek Underwood influence in his run up and delivery stride etc. Ashley Giles you are quite right in stating started as a medium pace bowler but correct me if I am wrong he changed his style due to a back injury/problem did he not?

You are absolutely right that there are cricketers past and present who could change styles BUT very few deliver at top level. When I was a kid at school I had the unfortunate experience of having a day's coaching at Edgbaston in the presence (and I put it no stronger than that) of Derrif Taylor. When I came out of the nets DT (who knew my Father quite well) came up to me and said that as a Fast Bowler I'd make a bxxxxy good Off-Spinner - Tiger Smith however who'd been watching on from outside the nets said to me "What did that old fool say to you then?" After I told him he replied "BXXXXy old fool what he knows about cricket tuppence wouldn't get his haircut" - My Dad said something similar when I got home only in much stronger language.

My point - Its all about perception isn't it? Tony Greig a good all-round cricketer - Useful Batsman not a bad Seam Bowler but an average Off Spinner don't you think? Garfield Sobers considered to be the greatest allrounder of his generation - When I saw him play he struggled with both bat and ball - Crazy eh? However anyone who saw him at his very best would see things differently.

I think in the modern game generally (certainly first class/test level) where you start is where you finish (unless circumstances dictate otherwise) - Once a Seam Bowler always a Seam Bowler eh? I would never make assumptions (as I was taught that to ASSUME makes an ASS out of U and ME) and certainly would never doubt that a Seam Bowler could become a Slow Bowler whether or not he could be an effective top line Spin Bowler well of that I am not sure - A bit like Jos Buttler maybe thinking he could be a top Wicket-keeper (I won't hold my breath).

Great to talk with people who know their cricket - Kind regards.

Likewise!
If Bob Appleyard was a relative of yours, I assume you've probably read his biography by Stephen Chalke and Derek Hodgson.  The sub-title which describes it as a remarkable story gets it right.  I had a chat to Stephen Chalke in the Press Box at Edgbaston earlier this year and he is someone else who really knows his cricket.
Yes, I also encountered Derief Taylor and although I quite liked him, I really didn't learn much from him (which may partly have been my fault but I don't think so).  I also got a brief tip from Tiger that was worth more than several hours of coaching.  I just wasn't good enough to benefit fully from it.
Anyway, it's good to exchange ideas.



Sadly I haven't read Bob's biography but I will try and get hold of a copy - Many thanks for the feedback - Much appreciated. Bob had a difficult life as I am sure you are well aware. Having signed for Yorkshire aged 17 he didn't make his first class debut I believe until he was 27 - Like many young men of his generation WW2 got in the way. There were also many obstacles to overcome during his life's journey

His best Bowling performance funnily enough was against The Bears at Coventry in the 1950's - He and Fred Trueman destroyed Warwickshire leaving Yorkshire who had to bat last requiring 1 run to win. Warwickshire decided to open the bowling with opening batsman Fred Gardener apparently and Yorkshire's opening Batsmen sent out to knock off that 1 run were Messrs Appleyard and Trueman (life long friends) - Trueman (as always) claimed that as he was the better batsman he should take strike - Bob wasn't having that and having worked out which end Fred was going to bowl from very quickly took guard at the opposite end and calmly hit the winning runs (I think it was a 4 but I could be wrong) off the first ball much to Fred's dismay. 

Bob once told me that Fred refused to talk to him that night - Though that silence was soon replaced by Fred's humourus gibes at Bob's batting. On the strength of that season (I think it was 1954) Bob was selected to tour Australia with England that winter. Bob was a lovely man - A true gentleman like Tom Graveney - Look forward to reading the book.

As regards Deriff Taylor, yes he was a nice bloke but didn't help me much - Infact didn't help me at all - The best coach I had at Edgbaston was the late Alan Townsend who died earlier this year (January 2015?) - Possibly Deriff was more of a batting coach than a bowling coach; The President of our Cricket Charity (Dennis Amiss) looks back on his time being coached by both Deriff and Tiger Smith with great affection and thanks - Dennis feels that they were both instrumental in his becoming a Professional Cricketer. May be when Deriff suggested that I should take up off spinning he really was having an indirect pop at my Dad - Well that was what my Dad thought anyway!

Thanks for your kind comments - Always good to exchange ideas - Catch up soon - Regards.
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